Click to enlarge.
The city Department of Education presented its final rezoning plan for the Upper West Side on Wednesday night, and insisted it includes “benefits for every impacted school,” according to Sarah Turchin, the director of planning at the DOE.
It was clear many in the crowd of about 150 people at the Joan of Arc Complex on 93rd Street did not agree — despite calls for calm, there were boos and hisses at points during the meeting, and impassioned arguments against the plans.
The map would rezone students at 11 schools starting with the Kindergarten class that starts in September 2017. Children already in schools would not have to move even if the new lines place them in a different school zone, and their siblings would still get preference to go there too.
Though the timeline is short, the Community Education Council, the local parent body that votes on the rezoning, expects to vote on Nov. 22 and — if they pass the plan — have the new zones finalized in time for parents to apply for schools under the Kindergarten Connect system that opens on Nov. 30. There will also be two public hearings.
Monday, Nov 14 @ 6:30PM – Public Comment/Hearing
PS84 Auditorium
32 West 92nd St
Monday, Nov 21 @ 6:30PM – Public Comment/Hearing
PS76 Auditorium
220 West 121st St
Tuesday, Nov 22 @ 6:30 PM – CEC3 Calendar Mtg and Zoning Vote
Joan of Arc Auditorium
154 West 93rd St
Plans to move three schools — PS 452, PS 191 and the dual language middle school — will have to be voted on by the city’s Panel for Educational Progress.
The DOE has posted its full presentation here, and the slide about the benefits to each school is below:
Some parts of the plan may be familiar from the city’s three previous plans. As expected, PS 191 at 61st and Amsterdam would move to a new building on 61st and West End.
The issue that has generated the most controversy is what would take 191’s place. Under the final city plan, PS 452 would move from 77th Street to PS 191’s old space at 61st Street and Amsterdam. While 452’s principal has supported this move, a large group of parents had petitioned to stop it, and had appeared to be making progress — two of the city’s prior zoning maps had kept 452 in its place. Parents have complained that they’ll be forced to make a long trek, and that the close-knit school they’d created would suddenly move out of their neighborhood. The city has said that 452 will thrive in its new location because it will get to expand its student body — adding 1 or 2 section per grade and a pre-K program — and have access to better amenities. The Dual Language Middle School (M.S. 247) would occupy the space now occupied by 452.
CEC3 members asked what happens if the parents don’t want to make the trek. Superintendent Ilene Altschul said they’d speak to individual parents on a case-by-case basis about going to nearby schools like PS 87 on 78th Street instead, but it was clear that the city doesn’t want enrollment to grow at 87. “We will work with them to find a seat in their zoned schools if available.”
Some parents in the Lincoln Towers complex may also be disappointed by the zoning lines for highly coveted PS 199 on 70th Street. While the DOE drew lines that will leave 205 West End Avenue in the 199 zone — it could have been rezoned for 191 under a prior plan — it continues to zone 165 and 185 West End Avenue for PS 191, whose test scores are well below the city average.
“I think it’s unconscionable that they’re splitting up a community that’s been together for 53 years,” said Isabel Stoll, a resident at 185. The Lincoln Towers have historically all been zoned for 199.
But the new 191 will be dramatically different from the current one. Historically, 191 has almost exclusively educated children from the Amsterdam Houses projects. Concentrating children from a high-poverty area at one school has historically made it tougher for those kids to succeed (they’re likely to have higher needs and less early-childhood education), and they didn’t have the kind of well-funded PTAs that have helped other UWS schools.
Under the new plan, children from Amsterdam Houses would go to three schools — 191, 199 and 452. And each of those schools would be likely to have the same percentage of students who qualify for free and reduced lunches (15%-20%), assuming most of the more affluent (or even middle class) parents don’t flee to public charters or private schools. The new PS 191 would also have a gifted and talented program starting in the third grade.
“I’m glad about the positive attention to PS 191,” said Dr. Elena Nasereddin, former principal there from 1991 to 2003.
The new plan would also change several districts farther North. PS 87’s lines would shift considerably, to encapsulate much of the current 452 district. PS 84 would also see new zoning lines and get new pre-K programs and an expansion of its dual-language French program.
The city is also planning to rezone schools in West Harlem as it plans to merge PS 241 STEM Institute on 113th Street and PS 242 on 121st. The change in lines would impact five schools, as seen below.
Below, see a letter from Chancellor Carmen Farina to parents.
Farina Letter by westsiderag on Scribd
I wasn’t able to make the meeting, but have read elsewhere that 191 would have a G&T program for 3rd grade. Anyone know why 3rd grade and not starting in K (like every other G&T program in this city)?
The DOE has started bringing in G&T programs in recent years at 3rd (maybe sometimes 2nd) grade across the city, I think to ensure that all kids have access (not just those whose parents are hooked into the whole G&T testing process). I don’t think that kids are admitted through the traditional G&T test, but I may be wrong?
I thought G&T programs are used as incentives to draw families to less desirable schools. But 191 G&T starts in 3rd grade, how does that draw in those families? They’ve already chosen other schools for their children and very unlikely switch for 3rd grade.
My understanding is that G&T programs are often sited in underenrolled/unpopular schools with the ultimate goal (the reason the DOE would care about bringing in higher SES families to these schools) of improving educational outcomes for all students, especially the lower SES students already attending the school. My sense is that what educators have learned about G&T programs that start at K and are nested in these schools is that they don’t do a great job at improving the educational outcomes of all students and can instead increase racial and socioeconomic divisions within a school. I think they hope that starting programs later will result in a more equitable and widespread improvements in educational outcomes. We will see if the promise of clearly differentiated learning opportunities starting in 3rd grade (when many parents see more of a need) works to entice higher SES families to attend a school they might not have otherwise.
I can’t respond to UWS Mom’s response to my comment, so I respond here. I think we’ll have to see whether the promise of differentiated education for gifted learned starting in 3rd grade is enough of a draw; I honestly don’t know. From what I’ve heard, higher SES parents who have kids there in preK like it and some are maybe even willing to stay through the lower elementary grades . . . concerns increase, maybe, as kids get older. Maybe these are a self-selected group already, but that’s the way school integration often starts — with those more willing to take what other perceive as risks for sake of what they perceive as the benefit of a more diverse school environment, among other things. People’s values and concerns are complex, and this could be one more thing that tips the scales for some – and hopefully it is more likely to have positive results for the entire school population, not just the small group chosen for G&T later on . . .
I agree that testing preschoolers for G&T is a bit ridiculous. But by having 191 G&T start in 3rd grade doesn’t make sense if every other G&T program in this city starts in K. The DOE should have Anderson and NEST also start in 3rd grade then. G&T at 191 is supposed to create an incentive for parents to give it a shot despite its horrible reputation and legacy students. Now they likely send their kids elsewhere.
This is quite unfortunate for many parents at 452, to be sure – but let’s look at the bright side here…
At about 3:30 in the morning, as Trump was giving his speech, the New York Times Editorial Board published a strong statement in support of this plan. I know, because I was up watching that electoral train wreck.
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/09/opinion/diversify-city-schools-and-make-them-better.html
Let’s all remember that on the day that Americans mourned a loss against a platform of racism and anger, the fight against “Separate but Equal” segregation was won in NYC. How ironic that four of the buildings Trump built should be instrumental towards this purpose.
Millions of disillusioned Americans, in their private pain, turned to a divisive platform that could set our nation back in time. How uplifting that in NYC we were able to buck this trend. The DOE, the CEC, our representatives, and the New York Times Editorial Board – have been able to see the big picture. Today, the private interests of the few did not squash the rights (like equal access to education) for the many.
THis plan is historic. For the first time in decades the city has publicly recognized segregation as a problem, and zoned to eliminate it its most extreme form in our city. See also the recent Politico article describing how this battle has been going on for nearly 60 years, begun with parents from Lincoln Towers were suing for a segregated system the year after P.S. 199 was built.
https://www.politico.com/states/new-york/city-hall/story/2016/10/upper-west-side-school-integration-fight-goes-back-50-years-106679
This plan is in complete alignment with the City Council’s School Diversity Accountability Act.
https://bradlander.nyc/news/updates/city-council-passes-school-diversity-accountability-act
Let’s acknowledge some people’s frustration here, but celebrate that somewhere in our country our leaders are doing the difficult, but right thing.
Today’s NY Times article
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/10/nyregion/rezoning-plan-for-3-upper-west-side-schools-will-proceed-city-says.html
Just Saying, that was a 10-paragraph superficial article on a topic with many layers that has been going on for years. Do you honestly believe that was in-depth reporting and provided any historical context or varied viewpoints? I think most NY Times readers are smarter than that and will recognize it for what it is. A brief summary of the CEC’s plan with the reporter’s opinion tagged on the end that magically matches that of the CEC. A real piece of journalism would have provided much more information from both sides.
The DOE and Community Education Council had more up their sleeve than school integration.
Sorry your candidate lost.
Dannyboy,
Fair and open access to a quality education is what this is about, but that does not jibe with your position.
I tend to strongly disagree with Dannyboy on a lot of things and don’t love his tactic of calling you un-American and his general snarkiness, but if there is one thing he has consistently stood for, it is fair and equitable education. Personally, I think he does it to a fault, but I will defend him completely on this.
Anon2
By following up on your false accusations
with the demand that I prove myself innocent of those lies by providing evidence is un-American.
Now we know who you are.
Not apologizing. Dare you to reference a previous post where you actually showed genuine concern for equitable education for all. That kind of concern in these times is not assumed, but demonstrated.
Find one comment that I have ever made to support your accusation that “Fair and open access to a quality education” is NOT my position.
You need to apologize for that insulting remark.
This was more than just about integration. It was also about school overcrowding. When you are trapped in a self-interest box, everything seems hidden from view, doesn’t it? Step outside and see the big picture!
Perhaps my “self-interest box” was too large. I wanted to see a fair and open school zoning process.
You wanted some change to overcrowding and integration.
So it is of course best to let open and honest public acts be damned.
Now where have I heard that justification before?
A great sermon. Please tell us how many kids you have in the city school system.
One or more. Yes, even a public school parent can think like a community member.
Anyone who voted for Trump is so far outside our community’s norms that they would likely feel more comfortable somewhere else.
Dismayed,
Idea that NYT “published that article on such a tumultuous night on purpose so it would get lost in the fray” is way off base and frankly undermines your credibility. The NYT weighed in on the day of the public CEC meeting where DOE sent a deputy chancellor and where principals spoke to make the case for their plan. This is called journalism.
One thing I do agree with though, there are a lot of disappointed 452 parents who will in fact have to make a trek in the mornings. The rezoning process has been tumultuous. The principal will have to heal the rift. I know it’s just a small gesture, but maybe 452’s PA and staff can think of ways to acknowledge the current cohort’s contribution to school integration that can give them something to be proud of. Maybe some themes with wry humor? “The March on 61st Street (that felt more like a trek)”
Dismayed,
I don’t think it is fair for you to have to walk an extra 16 blocks to school. Bit I think it is horribly unfair to tell any child they have to go to PS191 as it is today. I’m sure you agree with that, that’s why all the UMC families find alternative schools. The DOE needs to split up the economically disadvantaged kids so the UMC families accept some number of them at their schools. Splitting Amsterdam Houses into three zones will accomplish that. For that reason I think it is a good plan that will result in 3 good.schools in the lower part of D3.
So, Anon, you don’t see a problem with asking the parents from 452 who worked extremely hard over the last 6 years opening and building a new school which just this past spring graduated their FIRST cohort, to be responsible for rebuilding that school? We now have to find the energy, enthusiasm and optimism to bring the community back together, most likely upgrade the facilities, deal with disruptions in our children’s educations, walk a much longer distance to school – and all for a principal who doesn’t seem to respect us? I think that is quite a big ask.
There actually could have been more kindergarten seats made available had the new school opened in the 191 location – which was the original plan.
The DOE is lazy and just took the easy way out. And they condoned the CEC’s flagrant disregard for due process in doing so.
Unfortunately for Just saying, editorials in the Times are as irrelevant as their endorsement of Hillary Clinton. At the end of the day, 452 parents will “vote” on this matter by opting to send their children to the re-sited location – or not.
You are welcome to stay in your bubble and believe that the forces of political correctness will somehow overcome the majority opinion. It didn’t work out for the Clinton supporters on Tuesday, and it won’t work out this time either.
Dismayed,
The 115 3rd and 4th graders at ps 452 may have to go through the rebuilding years without seeing the pay off (although I think their parents and the PTA can make this easier if they stick around). During those years there will be two years of incoming kindergartners who will get a better experience at either 191,199 or 452 than they would have at the old 191 (and in many cases their parents are unable to provide the enrichment the 452 parents will provide for their kids). Overall this is a positive for the community. I’m not valuing the 452 kids less than the 191 kids. I’m saying they are equal.
452 parent and Dismayed.
Nobody said that anyone’s opinion is useless and nobody is getting everything they want in this situation
I know the NY Times article really bothers you all because it is the only player here that you cannot so simply just write off by saying they have some corrupt “special interest” – but I see you try to put them down anyway. Your stance really weakens your message.
To anon… A lot of people at the meeting last night admitted that it will take a couple of years 452 to see the benefits of the move and you in your post say that the school will probably go through a rough year or two.
There are approximately 115 3rd and 4th graders at 452 who will have to endure and bear the brunt of those rough years and will not reap the benefits. Why is it acceptable to risk the quality of their education? They, like the kids in the Amsterdam Houses, don’t deserve a lesser education than anyone else in the community, do they?
Ha Ha Ha Ha to Just Saying’s post below. The New York Times has an entire newspaper to fill. One might even theorize that they published that article on such a tumultuous night on purpose so it would get lost in the fray and readers might not even see such a one-sided piece of journalism whose content was likely crafted the same people that crafted the plan.
And if the CEC and DOE are acting in the community’s collective interest and will do so no matter what the community’s opinion of their actions is, then why go through the charade of pretending to give the community a voice in the first place? Just do what you’re going to do and get on with it. It would save a lot of people a lot of time (including the CEC and DOE members), energy and false hope.
Just saying, if the public’s opinions are totally useless and invalid, why did the CEC hold dozens and dozens of meetings soliciting public opinion? So disrespectful and wasteful of parents’ time.
For all the readers who are not familiar with this rhetorical tactic, let me explain…
When someone becomes uncomfortable with the direction of a discussion, they make the issue personal. You see it here in responses to fellow posters and in personal (and conspiracy theorist) attacks on CEC members.
First, it’s easier to attack an individual than to improve the substance of one’s argument. Second, the issue here is about equity in education for all, so it is helpful to shift from the collective to the individual. Once the focus is on the individual, the question becomes who owns the issue and why?
The argument goes that people with “skin” in the game have more say. It is a slippery slope. People who bought into a zone and have more say…People who pay more taxes have more say… Parents who donate more the school have more say…and on and on.
The other argument is that if the decision does not go the way that I thought it should, the system must be rigged (sound familiar?). That’s because parents acting in their own self interest assume that everyone else is doing so too. The question becomes, what corrupt purpose must my advesary have that makes them unwilling to make it go my way?
Don’t be fooled. The real question here is whose interest matters most? We can understand how most parents would answer that question. It is the CEC’s and DOE’s responsibility, however, to act in the community’s collective interest, and that is what has happened here.
This decision has greater consequence than the private interests of any individual or their children. That’s why the Editorial Board of the New York Times thought it was important enough to post their opinion during one of the most tumultuous nights in modern American history.
Oh really,
Those of us with kids already in schools, or with grown children, or childfree still have valid opinions. We understand this process will be difficult for the 452 families and the families with year olds who are now zoned for a school they didn’t choose. However, those of us who aren’t directly impacted can see the bigger picture without emotion. PS 199 will have the same size k class next year. The ratio of kids from Amsterdam Houses to those from Lincoln Towers will change but the same number of kids will get I to a good school. That is a neutral. PS 191 will have fewer kids from Amsterdam Houses and hopefully more kids from the surrounding condos. That is a plus. PS 452 — I don’t know about the upper grades but K will have mostly UMC kids and some from Amsterdam Houses. That school will thrive (although it may have a rough year or two). Overall, to the community as a whole, this plan has a chance of giving every child a decent elementary school experience. We care equally about all the kids in the district.
Just because this plan doesn’t impact our families directly doesn’t mean we should have no opinion.
Then…Perhaps a better question would be how many of your “one or more children” in the public school system are negatively impacted or displaced from their zoned school by this plan? My thinking is with comments like yours, probably none.
Dannyboy–I usually don’t see eye-to-eye with you, but I think your comments here have been spot-on.
What a waste of time for all the families that spoke at the public meetings thinking what they said would matter to the doe and the cec. I hope the 452 families pursue an injunction based on the nys advisory opinion they recently received.
Closing an elementary school with 300 seats in the most overcrowded district in NYC is a shameful act by the cec and the doe.
Your just pissed because they heard the parents but didn’t agree with the parents……hearing and agreeing are two different things.
Great meeting tonight – action packed. One thing I learned. I feel really bad for the 452 parents that don’t want to move. The DOE basically said that they have no plans for you and that they will work with you in the future. Sounds promising. I suspect they will give you 2 choices….move to 452 or go to 191, neither of which will be your new zoned school.
Good Luck
The Zones in the southern end of the district look exactly the way the boundaries would if there were “Special Interests” at stake.
This Zoning Process clearly demonstrated how all decision making can be stolen from the community. A real eye opener.
Clearly moving P.S. 452 out of the O’Shea complex was not about privileging Anderson (as many of you whined). The DOE plans to move M.S. 247, a Dual Language School which is 90% free and reduced lunch into that building. How is that in Anderson’s interest?
Many of you complained that the proposal would involve a net loss of elementary seats in the district. That is also not the case. With the M.S. 247 move, P.S. 84 can expand.
Perpetuating a school that isn’t entirely needed is certainly questionable – nearly half of the students were from outside the 452 district. All of the parents who were fleeing their neighborhood schools in the upper 80s and higher can now give those schools a harder look.
Once the DOE moves PS452, PS 87 will be the only zoned elementary school from 70th st to 84th st, 14 blocks. Please explain how that is appropriate and in the childrens best interest of this area and PS87. If you attended the mtg the other night on 11/9 you would have witnessed the principals all enthusiastically speaking about their plans with the new space they will be picking up . PS87 is facing the opposite. With this plan we realistically will be dealing with the influx of families now choosing their new zones school vs heading down to 61st st. PS 87 kids will lose art, gym and face safety issues in overcrowding. Is your child on the top floor if there is a fire drill or god forbid the real thing? Scary thought isn’t it. Funny since this plan was just unveiled but everyone was basically packed and ready to move. Remind me how the CEC represents the community again?
Am I looking at a different map? From what I see on the map attached to this article, the new boundary for PS87 would be 72nd St on the eastern section and 80th St on the western section.
As others have mentioned, there is a fixed number of incoming seats. If they fill, a waitlist is created and utilized as needed. This is in large part why the boundaries for the zoned schools need to be redrawn, there’s so much over-crowding at multiple southern District 3 schools. There’s obviously no guarantee that all incoming students will receive a seat once the zones are redrawn but here’s hoping to that…
Not to mention new residential construction, including the currently being-built building at 80th and Broadway. 19 stories, and advertising, of course, a “kids’ playroom.” Way to go CEC and DOE! See you all back here discussing overcrowding next year.
The new building at 80th and Broadway will be in PS9. From what I had previously read, the school had expressed a desire to slightly grow their boundary to include more incoming students.
E,
Ps 199 is the only school between w 61st and w77th — 16 blocks. How close together do you think the schools need to be? It is about having the right number of kids in the building. The children already enrolled in 452 won’t be transferring to 87. For future K classes the boundary lines have changed a bit. If there are too many for 87 there will be wait lists and we kids won’t get in just like with 199 in recent years.
anon, the fact that there were so many blocks zoned for 199 is one of the reasons it became so overcrowded. So yes, having 16 blocks all zoned for 87 is inevitably going to lead to overcrowding.
Rather than put in the effort that is required to establish an additional school, which this district has been in dire need of for almost a decade, the DOE is merely reshuffling students between 3 already established schools, which will in no way decrease overcrowding and will likely fail.
Disclosure: I am NOT a 452 parent — simply observing.
Agreed – I have to agree that the complaining about Anderson school became a bit much. It’s clearly not on the table, so move along.
But your argument that growing PS 84 is misguided. The PS 84 zone is no where near PS452 and doesn’t absorb any of the old PS 452 or PS 87 zones and in fact, only absorbs a small portion of the old PS 9 zone. So, I don’t think that makes any sense.
And you are completely wrong to say that half the PS 452 school is out-of-zone. That may be true in the grade, but it is not true school wide.
You are completely wrong about 452. The first couple of classes had a high percentage of out of zone students. This is mostly due to sibling grandfathering (ie, newly 452-zoned families who had an older child at 87 got sibling seats for their younger one, therefore opening a spot for an out of zone child). That does NOT mean there isn’t a need for the school. In 1st and 2nd grades, 452 is about 90% zoned families and out of zone sibs (this year’s K class is under-enrolled in-zone, due to the uncertainty around the move).
The CEC is well aware that there is very little support for the move within the 452 community. They are acting solely within their own interests, to free up space at their own children’s schools. Notice that Kim Watkins has successfully preserved the nearly all-white Gifted & Talented program at PS 166, despite the fact that they have to shrink the zone to accommodate in-zone children. How exactly does that jive with her claims of “moral responsibility” towards promoting diversity? These people are an embarrassment.
Your wrong, there is more support for the 452 move then you want to acknowledge….and those who have been for the move has been transparent about it unlike those against it has been less transparent. The meeting Wedneday night showed that. More spoke for the move then against.
452parentformove – I have no dog in the 452 move, but am otherwise impacted by this potential rezoning. I’ve been to every CEC and PEP meeting since April/May.
Until this past Wednesday, the overwhelming majority of parents that spoke about PS452 were against the move. Some could articulate good reasons, others could not.
In fact, right after the CEC announced plan C (which kept 452 in place) there were meetings when no pro-move 452 people spoke. I suspect the opposition is just tired and worn out a resigned to defeat.
Any let’s also be real – you are as self interested as the anti-move group. You want a dedicated space for your children more than you want integration. I suspect you would be fighting to move the building if was on 80th and WEA. You are just able to also use the convenient fact that this plan will desegregate portions of the south in the future. The make-up of your child’s class isn’t going to change, it’s just the future kindergartens.
It’s the same people speaking over and over again at the CEC meetings. I know all of the pro-move parents, there are about ten of you.
The CEC plan pragmatically addresses overcrowding, equity, and school quality where the status quo does not. Parents could use these hearings to formulate a workable alternative that meets the same criteria. The fact that there are so many personal attacks on the CEC suggests to me that the upset parents just don’t have a workable alternative. I have been reading their comments with an open mind. But all I see is “status quo, status quo” which isn’t even an option. The CEC was forced to make tough choices and balance competing priorities. I do feel bad for the 452 parents who have to move. Have I read anything from the upset parents that suggests there’s a better way to achieve this balance? No.
@soapbox, we sent the maps to the doe, cec, and the media. We have no control over whether the media picks it up. Or whether the doe or cec use our plans, unfortunately. They did use parts. Just not the parts that included LT in 199 and kept 452 in place…
Another parent told me about these alternative maps. I asked if they were posted online somewhere and I offered to give feedback. No actual maps were shown to me. If there is an amazing idea out there, it might have been better to get those maps out and talked about a while ago before the CEC and DOE were ready to move forward. At this stage, we’re in the final stretch, since everyone needs certainty for 2017.
Maps were provided to the doe and cec that achieve the goals better that keep Lincoln towers together at ps199 and keep 452 in place.
I have to agree with SoapBox on this. What I have gathered from the various comments is that, “I expressed a desired outcome or view and because it wasn’t met the whole thing is rigged.”
It appears the most vocal community members want to be leave the current zones in place or put this off for another year. These are no longer viable options. We need a long-term plan to address the issues and I believe the DOE is keeping that as the strategic view.
The unfortunate truth is that no solution was going to make everyone happy. If you have a better solution than the current status quo, please tell us what it is.
This is not correct- there is significant support within the school which is just not public and there are many within the concerned parents who also support the move but just have not told you because they are afraid of social repercussions. You might have 800 against the move but we don’t total upto 800 in the school anyway so those signatures are redundant. Tough choice but its NYC- you can join the new location or figure out other options. Life does not go your way all the time and nor do you own 452.
Well said SNL host, my sentiments exactly!
I am a “neutral” 452 parent and I’ve talked to many, many parents across the grades about the move. The number of parents in grades K to 3 who support the move is in the single digits. I’m sorry that’s not what you hoped, but unfortunately it’s simply the truth.
SNL Host – you are so full of it. I saw the letter that the pro-move forces sent to the DOE/CEC in support of the plan. It had approximately 100 signatures on it. When you pulled out faculty and other people not associated with the school, it equaled 34 children.
I will congratulate you on the win and getting the school building you want for your children, but don’t try to fool everyone that there was so much more widespread support for the move. It’s just not true.
Moving 452 is upsetting, but it had more to do with logistics in growing its size and having the room and amenities for having a robust program (as reported by staff there) than it has to do with anything else. A zoning solution is needed for the area, but it does not have to be the perpetuation for all eternity an inefficiently-sized school.
The DOE has already debunked some others’ ideas about this being about helping Anderson (the space is being used by the middle school at P.S. 84). The equity issues surrounding G&T programs is for another day, and it is not really central to the decisions in this vote.
The subject of equity and access to new york city G&T programs is very much a part of a discussion on the intersection of race, class, and school zones. Stop making excuses for Kim’s hypocritical choice.
Agreed, I’m sorry you have bought into the pro-move lies, but think for a minute. If 452 couldn’t function in the IS 44 space, the DOE wouldn’t have put it there in the first place. Parents were reassured for years that there were no issues with co-location or space. Moreover, in all these months of discussions, not a single concrete example has been given of a “more robust” program that will be offered in the new space. Not a SINGLE ONE.
Let’s get real. The only thing that will be more robust is Scott Parker’s career ambitions.
Danny Boy,
Just because the plan does not line up with your private interests does not mean that it is all about “special interests”.
If the DOE had given in to the loudest special interests 452 would not have been moved, 2 Lincoln Towers buildings would still be at 199, and all of the Amsterdam Houses would still be at 191.
How is it in 199’s “special interest” to essentially trade 2 Lincoln Towers buildings for 2 Amsterdam Houses? How is it in the interest of powerful private luxury developers along Amsterdam Avenue to be zoned out of 199? This is clearly a compromise.
This plan does not meet everyone’s interests, but it does look at the broader goal of equal access to public education. No longer is the southern area of our district zoned for segregation. It is in the interest of our entire community to stop “separate but equal” schooling in our community, once and for all.
You lost me at “Just because the plan does not line up with your private interests”
My interest is in having an open and democratic process for deciding the zoning of schools.
I did not get that.
Yes, those private interests were violated.
Glad you like the behind-the scenes violation of public affairs. Enjoy!
Your approach to what education should look like is neither open nor democratic. Your assertion that the process was corrupt is a distraction.
Show one statement of my “approach to what education should look like [that] is neither open nor democratic”.
You can’t.
You have made false accusations to quiet any criticism.
stop your lies
Not sure I understand this –
Will the families who are currently at PS 452, which I believe is located on 77th Street, now HAVE to commute down to 61st Street to the relocated PS 452 or to the already in place PS 191 across the street ?
Can they not go to PS 87, PS 334 or PS 9 instead, all of which are much closer, if not in the same area to where 99% of the PS 452 families currently live?
Exactly. This is punishing to the families at the school. Anybody who doesn’t realize what a burden it is to get littles kids to school 1 mile further away, isn’t a parent (or it’s been a long time). The subway answer is wrong, it actually takes more time than walking. And let’s be honest, the subways are dirtier and more dangerous every day. I know, I take my kid on the subway to get to his school. We have had to change cars because of fights, mental illness, and drugged up men rolling around on the floor. And that is the morning commute at 730 am!
Really? Every single day you ride the subway at rush hour there are drugged up men rolling around on the floor? If you were a dedicated mom you’d get your kids to school at any cost, no excuses. The complaints on here are a bunch of total nonsense.
The average parent spends 9 minutes in meaningful conversation with their children each day. Maybe the commute can help add a few more.
Not unless you cut off their Internet access while on the subway. Conversation? Hah! Those days are over (unless, of course, Mom connects her little ones as well, so they can Twitt and text and Facebook each other as they travel…)
Scott Parker does NOT care about the families at his school, who supported him tirelessly for years with their time and money. He only cares about his own ambition.
Apparently playing the “victim” card has won him a lot of sympathy from the DOE and CEC, so you can expect him to play it a lot more over the coming months.
The Amsterdam Houses kids in the early grades who end up at the school that all of the 452 kids were supposed to be shifted to will be fortunate to have a big, half-empty school all to themselves. Unfortunately, I’m not sure what options the 452 kids in the upper grades have.
Really? 452 was “never a permanent solution?” Did anyone tell this to parents? Or was that some kind of secret between the CEC and principal Parker, which apparently you were privy to? Anything else we might want to know?
And stop spreading lies about how the 452 teachers are supposedly being persecuted by parents. It simply isn’t true and you know it. Liars don’t get to sit on a high horse and look down at other parents.
I will say this (and I am against the 452 move to be perfectly open) – I have never once in any meeting spoken negatively about the quality of education and level of care they are providing our children. They have been excellent in that regard.
However, times of crisis show how good a leader a person is and this process has shown me that Mr. Parker is not a good leader. He made the initial call to the DOE about the building without consulting the parents and then when the snowball started to roll downhill he had one story that was different then the next. Then, a teacher essentially calls those of us who don’t want to move racists in the NY Post and he chose not to address it at all. I’m sorry, but that does not build community.
BTW, I am not a “whiner” like you say. I will go to the ends of the earth to protect my children and for me, being part of a community school where I can walk my children to everyday was just as important. If that makes me “self-interested” than so be it. Perhaps you should take a page out of your own comments.
Educated – Stop saying that PS 452 was not a permanent solution. When the school was started it was not a zoned school, but the parents fought and the DOE agreed to give it a zone. I’m not sure how you can then say a zoned school was never permanent. That is just not an accurate statement.
And as a parent that has been considering making the move to 61st with PS 452, please tell me how your comment shows any respect or civility. For many parents, being at a community school is an important aspect of their children’s education. Your comment shows me just what you really think about those that don’t want to move and it’s pretty DISGUSTING.
Kim, the current 452 families are being told that they can “try” to transfer to PS 87 or 199 (not 334 which is a G&T). However, they have also be told there are no available seats at those schools (the principal of PS 87 has already said publicly that she will not take 452 families). Therefore, yes, 452 families are being forced to commute.
So is 205 WEA zoned for 199 or 191 in this plan?
It appears it’s zoned for 199. WSR
Mr. Parker got his feelings hurt last night because someone in the crowd spoke out and Mr. Parker felt sad because he thought the person didn’t want to listen to him.
Well, I’m sorry Mr. Parker. You did not care one bit about the feelings of the parents when you “inquired” about the possibility of the school moving a mile away from the homes of its students. You never told us, other than in casual remarks, about the difficulty you and the teachers face on a daily basis due to sharing the school. You never sent out a letter, called a meeting or revealed in any official way that you sought more for our kids than what the current building could offer. You betrayed our trust when you opened this immense can of worms without any warning. Why should I care about your feelings?
And why should I believe that the new 452 will be just as good as the old? There is such divisiveness now that many families will not follow and there will very likely be a big dip in PTA funding which pays for many of the things that make the school so great.
So I challenge you to admit to us parents that you did not handle this situation properly and reveal if you are regretful whatsoever about the way it unfolded. And more importantly, I challenge you to convince me and and the other hesitant parents that the school will be just as good and dynamic as it currently is.
If you care so much you could at least give it a try instead of now trying to play the victim.
Wow your truly clueless! Mr.Parker was strong, articulate and handled a very difficult evening with class….unlike those in the audience who were rebel raisers with no respect or class whatsoever!
Are you the “classy” pro-move parent I overheard threatening violence against a parent who disagrees with you? Another hypocrite.
I would not stoop to that level, but clearly others would….I get there has been a lack of “class” on both sides of this, hurtful things have been said, on both sides, but one doesn’t cancel out the other and make it all right to behave and act however you want….all for freedom of speech but for God’s sake be respectful about it…and that goes for both sides of this controversial fence.
The problem is that you are not hearing what you want to hear so now suddenly the school’ s leader you loved has become a problem and is criticized. You have a choice: take a seat in the district, move to the burbs or come to 452 on 61st street ( but I really wish that your coalition does not come- you are not nice people when you don’t get your way). And threats of law suits and that you won’t give any money are so lame. You don’t have to because there are many of us who will go and give more – just the way we did when 452 was established and we invested. Who are you anyway in the larger context? some upper west side rich family who throws their weight around and are entitled?
So now I have been called a racist by a teacher at the school and am being told by a parent that we aren’t even wanted. Great community you are trying to build there.
To those UWS parents about to be zoned to the newly relocated 452 – congratulations you won the grand prize.
I feel terrible for “just saying” and the handful of pro-move parents who are entrusting their child’s future to Scott Parker. The man is simply not trustworthy. We left 452 after speaking to parents from the first graduating class about their experience applying to middle schools. As a public service to you, I urge you to do the same.
Former 452 parent, could you elaborate on your comment about the first graduating class’s experience? I am very curious. Our experience so far has been that it’s very, very difficult for working parents to get in touch with anyone in school. We were told that when one K class’s assistant teacher left, NO ONE knew until the day of. And then no one bothered to introduce the new teacher to the parents. These are the people that the children interact with everyday. That was surprising.
Smartbitch – I’m actually a parent that is opposed to the move and have been nothing but cordial to administration, faculty and the small group of parents that actually want to move. I’ve even spoken with Mr. Parker on multiple occasions about how things went off the rails and I think his message certainly changed after some of the initial meetings. But, you have to be living in a fantasy world if you think this process has been anything but flawed.
Let me ask you – do you think it was appropriate for a teacher to imply in the NY Post that parents against the move are racist and have nothing be said by the administration?
And I am sick and tired of hearing that the anti-move people have threatened or intimated or whatever word you want to use. That is so far from the truth it is laughable. Your group could write any letter or speak at any meeting, nothing or no one has stopped you. The fact of the matter is we are louder than the pro-move forces because we are so much larger.
And nice attitude you have – good lesson to teach your kids. Mr. Parker would be very proud of you.
Actually, SB, I have never been against the move, but I have had an issue since the beginning with the way Mr. Parker has handled the situation. Imagine if he would have informed the parents of the hardships the teachers were facing and how the lack of space was limiting our children’s educational experiences. If he would have asked our help in coming up with a solution, all of the brain power, time and effort that are now going into fighting the move and constructing a law suit could have gone into working together to explore other options. I think the outcome could have been a more more positive one for the school.
Now, though, since the community is no longer cohesive and there is the potential for the school to go downhill before all of the positive effects of the new zoning start to kick in, I am concerned about sending my child there. Plain and simple. Mr. Parker created a situation that I feel he should address and at at least try to ameliorate.
Well, smartbitch, it must be nice to have lots of money to refill the coffers of the 452 PTA and make up the funding for the families bailing out. Those are some big checks you’re going to be writing. I have little money, but I have given a lot of my time towards building up a community school that is now being removed from the community. Ergo, I have nothing left to give.
Wow. It seems that pro-452-move parents are extremely nasty on this comment board, just like the pro-move parents I see in the school. They are awful to others. I have only seen gentle and sad comments from parents who don’t want to commute. Is this how we treat others who don’t agree with us? Smartbitch, if that’s how you talk, I am glad we are leaving 452 because I don’t want my child anywhere near you.
Exactly. There are two pro-move parents who are no longer speaking to me because I didn’t sign their letter. Meanwhile I have had many civil conversations with anti-move folks debating the pros and cons of the issue.
Apparently if you’re waving the flag for “diversity,” it’s okay to be completely rude to fellow parents.
dismayed – Couldn’t agree with you more. Plus, he has a faculty member quoted in the NYPost implying that the families that don’t want to move are racist.
Can you guess how he has responded to that baseless claim – with silence. The 452 PTA, which is supposed to represent all of the parents, also remains silent on the issue.
Great leadership all around and great environment for parents to be in.
Really happy though that the small minority of parents that want the move will get what they want. It would be really nice and civic of them to stand in support of the parents that don’t want to move and help them force the DOE to provide them alternative spots.
What NY Post article is that because I can’t find it…
452parentformove – You mustn’t have looked very hard….
https://nypost.com/2016/10/16/parents-upset-over-racially-charged-rezoning-proposal-to-move-school/
“I’m not sure there would be this much opposition if the new area was more to their liking,” said a teacher at PS 452.
Come on, tell me there is not some truth in this statement, reality is people try at least to move to areas they like, feel comfortable in, some people like areas in Queens over areas in Manhattan, etc…but there is a comfort zone people look for in moving….it doesn’t always have to do with being racist because you don’t like a particular area, people need to sometimes take a statement at face value and stop reading into it.
Thank you for posting this.
Could someone confirm, do the proposed black lines split the street? For example, the proposed south boundary of PS 87 (on the east-side) is 72nd St. Will residents on the south side of 72nd go to PS 199 and will the residents on the north side of 72nd go to PS 87?
Yes, the street is split as you described.
We live on the north side of 89th…so this means we are zoned for PS 84 even though we live across the street from PS 166? That’s bonkers.
Anon – That’s correct. Welcome to the wonderful world of rezoning.
That is how its worked in the past. Live on 85, north side to 166, south side to 9.
UWS Mama2 –
I actually asked this very question of the DOE back in May. You are correct. If a line is drawn down the middle of a street, the north side of the street goes to the school zone to the north while the south side of the street goes to the south. So, south side of 72nd Street goes to 199 and north goes to 87
Great, thanks!
If the DOE truly wants to prop up neighborhood schools, I suggest they stop allowing families to opt out of their local schools via segregated district G&T programs (HELLO KIM WATKINS!).
My two outstanding questions remain:
1. Is it 100% confirmed that siblings will be grandfathered with older siblings? There was a lot more line movement at some of the schools further north so this question does not just impact the southern schools.
2. What are they doing with the current 452 space? I know 452 wasn’t huge, but that seems like a lot of empty rooms – I hope they have a concrete plan that will be implemented immediately.
I remain shocked that they are moving the students at 452 to a building so far away. The NY Times article says that existing students would be grandfathered, but this is not the case for older 452 students who will be going to a totally different building much further away.
I also love that the NYT editorial says the reputation for 191 being unsafe is undeserved. There is concrete proof of incidents that happened, and as long as the school goes through 8th grade this is not going away.
The NYT coverage of this issue (and so many other issues) is pathetic. Oddly, the West Side Rag is often more reliable than the NYT.
Doesn’t seem so odd to me. The NY Times was predicting an 85% chance of a Clinton election, up until 7pm Tuesday night! If you want the real story, that’s not the place to find it!
The article states that the Dual Language Middle School (M.S. 247) would occupy the space now occupied by 452. P.S. 84 would then have more room to expand.
M.S. 247 is 90% free and reduced lunch. All of the people who theorized that moving 452 was about doing some special favor for Anderson were apparently wrong.
This also shows that moving 452 does not mean losing elementary seats in the district – 84 is expanding.
i think a politician and a lobbyist feed the NYT the editorial.
How do you like the democratic process at work here?
Absolutely. Timing and slant reeks of it.
And no real journalistic coverage of the actual DOE school performance problem – 30-35% citywide passing rate with some in District3 even lower? Some improvement and progress is good, but this performance is atrocious with no plan from the DOE to improve. ALL children need excellent educational opportunities.
Absolutely. A politician and lobbyist absolutely fed the NYTimes this editorial.
A member of the pro-move coalition at PS 452 wrote the editorial.
So whatever happened to the Freedom of Information requests put forth by the Coalition of District 3 Parents weeks ago? Was that just an idle, toothless threat?
None of the FOILS have been fully responded it, included those submitted by Lincoln Towers residents.
Everyone at PS 452 is fleeing. We know only 1 in-zone family who wants to go to the new location. We tore up our check to the PTA the moment we found out it’s moving. Why would we support a school that doesn’t care support us?
The 452 families I know are disappointed and angry, but they seem begrudgingly resigned to bringing their kids to the new 61st st location because they have no other options unless they somehow get into 87 or 9.
The exodus of current 452 families will be a trickle not a flood. Maybe 20% of families will find another option for next fall, then 25% the year after. If the newly zoned families can overlook the bitterness of the community and build something new, the school may thrive again a few years from now. Or it may not. It is unfortunate. A better leader could have handled this in a different manner and kept the school intact through the move.
I don’t understand why moving the Anderson School instead of 452, wasn’t an option. Anderson is not a zoned school and serves kids Citywide, so the impact on parents and students would be less and would still leave room for 452 to expand in its current location once Anderson moved out of the shared space.
Sherry,
If Anderson rain moved to the 191 building what would the rezoning at the southern part of the district look like? There would only be two schools to split the kids from Amsterdam Houses into, there would be hundreds fewer seats. The 199 zone would have to stop much further south, perhaps even stopping before 70th St.
You could easily slit the Amsterdam houses children between 452 and 87 with the Anderson move, splitting between 4 schools instead of 3.
Listen to the 452 parents who are complaining (and I agree it will be tough) about having to get small children to the 191 building because it is an extra 15 blocks away. That situation will end as these kids age out of elementary school. You are proposing a more permanent move where kids from Amsterdam Houses would have to go an extra 15 blocks. That isn’t feasible as a permanent plan.
So what your saying is that the kids from 452 can travel 15 blocks but that it’s not ok for the kids from Amsterdam houses to travel 15 blocks? (Disclosure: I am NOT a 452 parent). Either way, the city should be providing buses — I understand they are not.
Spreading the Amsterdam houses among 4 schools (191, 87, 452, & 199) would increase diversity across more of the district (ps9 & 87 are projected to have just (0-10% free and reduced lunch).
So what your saying is that the kids from 452 can travel 15 blocks but that it’s not ok for the kids from Amsterdam houses to travel 15 blocks? (Disclosure: I am NOT a 452 parent). Either way, the city should be providing buses — I understand they are not.
Spreading the Amsterdam houses among 4 schools (191, 87, 452, & 199) would increase diversity across more of the district (ps9 & 87 are projected to have just (0-10% free and reduced lunch).
The fact that the Anderson move is being pushed aside so quickly reaks of special interest. There simply are not enough children in the lower portion of district 3 to fill 3 schools if all schools are truly good schools. This is one of the reasons why they need to bring 452 down…. but the population is eventually going to trickle out… the small leftover population to fill a school will remain. Anderson is truly the only logical solution and the fact that it isn’t being considered should be followed up with (especially since, not surprisingly, at least one of the cec members has children that go here).
Pardon my ignorance, but I am still trying to understand how this all works. Let’s say you live at 75 and WEA, so were in the 452 zone. If you have a current 3rd grader, they will be going to the school on 61st St? And an incoming kindergartener next fall will also be going there? From the map it looks like these residences would now be going to 87 and the “new” 452 would be made up of half old 191 and half old 199? It is all very confusing.
Leon –
Here’s how it will work. If you are currently in the 452 zone then your third grader will be permitted to move with the school to 61st street. If you don’t want to move, you may try to go to your newly zoned school (PS87) if there is space.
Your incoming child will be zoned for PS 87, so they can go to PS87. However, they will have sibling priority at 452 if you chose to send them to 61st Street.
I’m assuming that the reverse sibling grandfathering would be honored as well. If you have a current 452 child and another child starting kindergarten in 2017, and are now zoned for 87; your younger child can go to 87. The older one at 452 would have sibling priority to come into 87 (assuming there’s space) over other 452 children with no siblings who will be starting kindergarten at 87.
That is a great point – I wonder if that will actually be permitted. And will the older child be considered a priority sibling when the younger child is in kindergarten or will they have to wait until the younger child has completed a year there, thus making them the sibling of an already enrolled student.
My guess is that the DOE has not even considered this. Unfortunately, I also think that 87 is pretty close to capacity in upper grades so I don’t know how many seats there would be, even for a priority in-zone sibling.
Thank you. So basically kids currently in grades K-4 at PS 452 (and potentially their younger siblings who would ideally attend the same school as the older sibling) are really being uprooted but anyone else in that area with a child born in 2012 or later does not have to trek to 61st Street?
It seems like the current students are the ones really being hurt by this, then it will largely go away in a few years. There really should have been more thought to a way to hold harmless those kids, particularly the ones in the upper grades whose families were among the pioneers who really got 452 up and running.
Some sort of a “phase-out” would have been better – I’m not exactly sure how this would work but I don’t think it is much different than how G&T was phased out of PS9.
From what I’ve read, the older grades are just going to put up with the commute for one or two years even though they aren’t happy about it. It’s the younger grades that really get shafted. They’ve got 4 or 5 more years of commuting 16 blocks to a NEIGHBORHOOD school. Plus if they have younger siblings, the parents need to decide whether to have the kids at 2 different schools or deal with a 16 block commute for even longer.
I’m not a 452 parent, but I think 452 parents against this move absolutely have a right to be upset. And from what I’ve read about how this was all handled by the principal, staff, CEC and a group of pro-move parents (the DOE did propose 2 plans that didn’t move the school), I understand why they want nothing to do with that school anymore.
I also don’t understand why some kind of phase out of current 452 families was not considered. To my knowledge, no other zoning changes or closure of programs has ever forced families to pick up and move to a different school. They are always done with the assumption that current students will be allowed to finish in the program and location where they started.
I heard today that a 452 parent called PS 87 and said they would like to transfer their child into the school starting on Monday (into a grade where they know there is capacity).
The school told them that they are now required to hold any open seats for the remainder of the year for zoned families only. That is a new one. Looks like the DOE/CEC are circling the wagons to prevent the 452 families that don’t want to move from transferring. This smells of bad politics.
In 2017/2018 EVERY seat in PS 87 will be filled from 1st-5th to capacity due to enrollment caused by new zone lines and families opting to attend their zoned school per Chancellor Regulation A101
PS87 WILL be at or over capacity guaranteed.
They will be forced to overflow to 452 as in the past. The following year they will be forced to add sections and squeeze the building to capacity like 199 is doing.
The proposal D the CEC has approved already, behind closed doors, to move 452 will not make anything better for the current families at PS87, PS452 or PS199.
PS87 and PS199 will have the same or worse problems with overcrowding now and future to come.
What’s the point of that? Won’t the new 452 be more successful with families that actually want to be there? It almost seems like the CEC wants the school to fail.
What the DOE and CEC don’t address..
The solution for many families that don’t want to move, from the time the new zone is approved and especially in the months of August & Sept 2017, register to your newly zoned school…
Chancellor Regulation A101
EVERY seat in PS 87 will be filled from 1st-5th to capacity.
PS87 WILL be at or over capacity guaranteed.
They will be forced to overflow to 452 as in the past. The following year they will be forced to add sections and squeeze the building to capacity like 199 is doing.
The proposal D the CEC has approved already behind closed doors, to move 452 will not make anything better for the families at PS87, PS452 or PS199.
PS87 and PS199 will have the same or worse problems with overcrowding.
I am a 452 parent that has been opposed to the move since the very beginning. As you can imagine, today is a very sad day for me and my family because we are now resigned to the fact that school is going to move.
I am also incredibly disheartened for a number of additional reasons. The last 3-4 weeks have been incredibly eye-opening for me. Perhaps I was too naive going into the process but I thought that we would have thoughtful and engaged discussion. Instead, I have watched politics and lobbying take a hold of this process. For those of you posting on this board that honestly think this process was without flaw and inside gamesmanship, you are either fooling yourself or got what you wanted out of this plan. I’m too tired to get into any details but the record clearly shows that this plan was forged with unclean hands.
Second, listening to what I heard at drop-off today and the messages I am reading on this board today are shocking and disappointing to say the least. To have someone say that “we don’t want you anyway” is one of the worst things you can say to a person. In fact, if our children were saying that to other children we would call them bullies.
Then, to top it off, it is becoming readily apparent that the DOE is going to ensure the recommended class caps are honored and breakage is not applied at PS 87 and PS 199 so that the PS 452 families that don’t want to relocate to 61st street will have no viable alternatives. Instead we will be forced to attend 452 where a teacher has called opposition parents racist in the NY Post and the pro-move families would rather build a wall to keep us out. How’s that for a community.
and now I have to explain this to my kids who don’t want to move.
So Anon1 it is apparently way harder for you to move then your child….what does that say about you? I have never been so disappointed in parents in a community in my 30 years of living in nyc, then I am right now in 452’s parents. There would be no 452 without Mr. Parker and his wonderful staff that started it, the wonderful parents who supported it from the beginning and had trust in the administration and staff…just because they move buildings does not mean any of that will change, the staff is for it, the wonderful staff who have taught our children so well…now all that is changing because of a move? Seriously? We live in nyc people, the most diverse city, but yet is a city with the most socioeconomic segregation in all the US.
Talk about fair weather parents, their with ya when everything goes their way, but verbally abuses you when they don’t get their way. I don’t want my kid around that, that negativism, would you? So suck it up and be a good example to your child for God’s sake!
Things change and sometimes change even when you don’t want them to, our kids are going to look at us as their examples on how we should act in these situations…..are we going to make them proud or embarrass them? The way I see it, if the move happens, you can either go and support it, try to make the best out of it even though you don’t agree, or you can uproot your child, take them away from their friends, and try and put them in a school you think is “better.” Either way, just do it without bashing and being hateful. You have a choice, show some some class when making it.
The move is happening, and I feel very bad for the children of the 452 parents who are buying this nonsense hook line and sinker. Smart parents are looking for better educational opportunities for their children.
I do not have kids at 452, but the unhappiness with the move is a logistics issue as much as anything else. When choosing where to send a child for kindergarten, you are making an reasonable assumption that they will stay in that building through 5th grade. You build a life around that – choosing a nearby nursery school for younger siblings, getting involved in afterschool activities, setting schedules with jobs and caretakers. Lives in NY are very busy, particularly for families where both parents work, so building efficiencies in life is very important.
I’m not saying that an efficient life for 452 parents trumps the rights of other students throughout the district to have a top notch education – that should be the ultimate goal. But this redistricting could have easily been done in a way that accomplished both goals – at least one of the scenarios showed that. This is why these parents are so upset.
452parentformove –
Please tell me in my post anything that I said that lacked class. Please point out the error of my ways.
My post doesn’t bash Mr. Parker, doesn’t bash the faculty. I think it is absolutely fair for me to say that the process was deeply flawed (and give me a break if you think otherwise).
Like many parents at PS 452, I am a working parent. Part of the reason I chose to live where I do is so that I can walk my child to school in the morning, because many days that is the only time I get to spend with my parents. So please forgive me if I would like to keep this school where it is so that I can spend time with my children.
I’ve never once in any forum challenged Mr. Parker, the faculty or the pro-move parents for the reasons they want the move.
It’s my personal choice with my children to decide what is best for them and we will do that.
Over the past few weeks I have seriously contemplated would it be better the just put my tail between my legs and send our kids to 452 and give it a try. After reading your post and the post of others on this thread, please tell me how I can feel comfortable in the new school building….
Your absolutely right ANON1, where I don’t agree with you on alot, you have not lacked class, I reread my comment, though I addressed it to ANON1 I realize the “classy” comments were intended for another commentor on here…for that I apologize.
452parentformove – Thank you for taking the time to make that apology. I honestly appreciate it since people on these message boards can hide behind the cloak of anonymity.
Unfortunately, this entire rezoning/re-siting has turned in a complete disaster and there is a lot of fault that can be pointed in many directions. At this point we should be past it – the rezoning/re-siting is going to be approved so we need to move on.
Unfortunately, for those of us that don’t want to make the move there are too many unanswered questions. First, it appears that the DOE is going to box people from transferring to PS 87/PS199. Second, for the first time in this process the DOE made no mention of busing or transportation for families that are forced to make the move. I truly hope this was an oversight.
Lastly, given the awful tone of messages on these threads and around the school yard, please tell me how you think the “anti-move” families can comfortably make the move with the school. Speaking only from my point of view, my family has talked about this since last Wednesday’s meeting and have seriously considered moving with 452 as it may be in my children’s best educational interest. However, reading what I have read and heard from pro-move families, I have serious doubts about being able to feel comfortable in the school. And, you can say what you want about the NYPost article, but that was an implicit comment that those of us against the move are racist.
I am curious to hear your thoughts on how we fit back in.
As someone without an interest in this, I’m pretty surprised by the anti-move parents.
The anti-move parents have a valid complaint, but their means of expressing it – in this comment thread and in others – is way over the top. Threatening that no one will go to the new school, that they won’t donate to the PTA for this year (when their kids are actually still at the school!), complaining that the subway is dirty (have you looked at the streets lately?). Then turning around calling the pro-move people “bullies” because someone said the school would be better off without them.
And, by the way, I hope the anti-move people aren’t the same people calling Trump voters racist and misogynist. Because pot meet kettle. You can’t have it both ways. There were a number of valid reasons to vote Trump, just as there were bigoted ones. I see the same mix happening in this school zoning debate.
Or you can do what so many middle class families do, move to the burbs. More space to live, on average better schools, lower taxes. Commuting sucks, but being priced out of everything drives so many peple out.
Since when does living in the suburbs = lower taxes? Sure, you won’t be having NYC tax withheld from your paycheck, but you still have property taxes to pay, commuting costs, a mortgage (unless you are renting, a car (you can’t walk to buy your groceries), etc.
I have been supportive of the overall goals from the outset. But the timelines and procedures have not made sense. Due process was not followed. Feedback was not meaningfully considered.
• A supposed 18+ month process really began in earnest in July with Scenarios A+B, and with the magic acceleration of Riverside School construction in August. Data and methodology – long asked for by the community and CEC to the DOE – was only provided in late September. A review of the Data (by the community and shared with the DOE and CEC) has shown multiple errors, impacting assumptions to enrollment projections, underlying all plans. The DOE admits they don’t know what they are doing with rezoning and enrollment, asking for help in a contest: https://www.nyc.gov/html/cfi/html/DOE/index.html . It has been asked to the DOE by multiple people in multiple CEC meetings, but not fully answered: given sibling grandfathering, projected residential construction completion, and family decisions, when would the rezone be fully realized and in effect? How will the success of the plan be monitored in years 1,2,3,4,5,7,10? What examples of previous rezonings of this nature showed success and when were those realized?
• In the midst of the public, community planning process, representatives – both elected politicians and parents in the CEC – have chosen to meet privately, construct and devise strategies, and lobby schools, parents, and groups behind-the-scenes. Public letters and articles/editorials are released in conjunction with plans or updates. Why the secrecy and lobbying? It is wrong and unjust. This is collusion – not community collaboration.
• Those making decisions are not personally impacted since their own families since already enrolled. The Chancellor even explicitly called this out in her letter about the larger community impact. The main ones immediately impacted are those in 452 and any families with younger children about to enroll next year or soon after. And given questions above about realization of zone projections, it’s not clear about any success timelines. The bottom line is that perspective changes when it’s your own family, which even goes for CEC President Joe Fiordaliso according to https://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20150602/upper-west-side/podcast-advocating-for-schools-after-overcrowding-hits-home He was concerned about sending his own child to the school that could be seen from his bedroom window, literally across the street. As a parent, he had stress and anxiety about the process, and had trouble answering questions to his child when playing in the playground if she’d go to school there. But now, at a different stage in school, proximity does not seem to be the same large driving factor that it should be in the decision process, and that should be corrected.
• Scenarios (A, B, and C) had various options, EXCEPT for the southern portion of the district that had exactly the same zone lines. The official proposal is mostly similar with only minor zone line changes. It has been asked in the public forums, what exactly is the agenda against the 2 Lincoln Towers buildings with 2-3 kids total per year? There has been no data, reasoning, validation, or explanation justifying the change. Alternative plans were provided to the DOE and CEC that support, achieve, and exceed the DOE goals. Why were they not considered?
• We need excellent educational opportunities for ALL children in the District. The Chancellor also said this is in her letter as the first and foremost job as educators. But a citywide passing rate of 30-35%, with some in the district even lower is not acceptable. What is the DOE plan to address this and how will they be held accountable?
For all the dysfunction and lack of decorum displayed by the CEC on Wednesday and holding “feedback” meetings the next 2 weeks, I challenge the CEC to actually object to the proposal for flawed process, inaccuracies, and lack of success criteria/guarantee. At a bare minimum, there should be demands to hold accountability to the DOE for continuous review, monitoring, and adjustment where needed – for the rezoning but also for turning subpar schools into success so all children can excel.
Perhaps ideas too outlandish or hard to achieve should really be discussed and considered:
1. Rezone all children immediately, which also removes grandfathering clause. This is a large uplift and impacts everyone. But then projections should be reality immediately, and everyone has skin in the game to succeed.
2. If the southern portion of District 3 requires this much reworking, why not adjust the District to include blocks further south? This would allow more options and better solutions.
3. Move city-wide Anderson School somewhere else.
This all comes down to one notion:
Desegregating schools and equal educational opportunities for all is good… Except if I have to personally sacrifice to achieve it.
People say “the process was rigged” and it sounds to me like CEC members have made decisions that protect their personal interests because they don’t want to personally sacrifice to achieve the goals they claim are a moral imperative.
People say “16 blocks is too far to walk” and it sounds to me like they don’t want to personally sacrifice to achieve a goal they agree is worthy.
People say “how dare you split our towers and deny some of us our right to 199” and it sounds like they don’t want to personally sacrifice to achieve a goal they have said is worthwhile.
People say “the timing is unfair” and it sounds like they want more time to figure out how they can avoid personally sacrificing to achieve a goal that they have stated is worth achieving.
And I’m not passing judgement here. Honestly. Achieving real change is hard. It requires people to personally sacrifice to achieve it. And when that personal sacrifice involves our children it’s even harder. It’s certainly easier to say “desegregating schools and equal educational opportunities is good” than it is to make some personal sacrifices to make it happen.
If desegregation is the ultimate goal, why doesn’t DOE plan C work? The plan would (1) open a new school at the old 191 site and (2) keep 452 at 77th street with a priority admissions program for diverse students (which the city is doing at 19 other schools with the DOE support). Doesn’t this diversify 4 schools rather than 3?
If the answer is simply that the DOE/CEC would rather the 452 faculty and administration move to the old 191 because they think it will be more successful, then they should just be honest and say that.
My guess would be that they don’t think they can support 4 separate elementary schools.
Not wanting to start again with a new school is not a secret, the CEC has explicitly made reference to this fact. Jumpstarting 452 was hard and they don’t want to go through that again.
Untrustworthy principal. Poor community spirit. Sub-par academics and lower test scores vs neighboring schools. Can’t think of a single reason to commute my kid to 452. Will be moving to PS 9 or 166 zone.
Well if you were so miserable, why didn’t you move sooner?
One word: proximity.
452 is “good enough” as the school that currently offers the greatest convenience. But as I already stated, I see no reason to commute for this school.
I would commute so my child could attend a Gifted class with an enriched curriculum, as many others do. I MIGHT commute for a school that has substantially higher test scores. I will not commute for a school that, by objective measures, offers even less than the ones that will now be more convenient to my home.
I get it 452 parent, all the best to you, but for the record my post was for someone else that I obviously forgot to state
Same here, and I have also registered my child for the Bright Kids G&T prep class. Seems like G&T is the one thing that has protected status in all this.
If you have to schlep, at least get a Gifted class! Why would anyone schlep for a regular zoned school, if they can find another option? makes no sense!
Just so we’re all clear: leaving my zone for proven successful 452 is a tragedy. Leaving my zone for G&T no matter how far is great? So you’re not as much interested in the quality of educators but the socioeconomic make up of the class?
And there we unfortunately have it UWSDad 🙁
@UWS Dad – Kim Watkins, head of the CEC zoning committee and one of the architects of this plan, pulled her daughter out of PS 191 for PS 166 G&T. She has stated this in public meetings, feel free to check. Do you believe she was seeking out a wealthier socioeconomic peer group for her child? Why is it okay for her to do this, and not PS 452 parents? I certainly hope you will respond.
Kim Watkins sent her child to PS191 with its *current* demographics, then helped come up with a plan to change the PS191 demographics to make it much easier for *other* parents to choose PS191 even though no “easy” choice was available when she chose to send her child there.
I suspect she did indeed move her child because she believed the G&T program would provide a better education. I also believe the members of the CEC and doe and our elected officials who claim to belive in the moral obligation to desegregate the UWS schools but don’t send their own children to 191 or any other school that is currently performing badly are being very hypocritical. Don’t get me wrong, making decisions that you, as a parent, belive is in the best interest of your child is understandable and the right thing to do. But members of the CEC and others who claim to belive in the cause of making change and desegregating but refuse to sacrifice for it should own up to that fact.
I’m a district 3 parent with a child in one of the schools being impacted by the changes. I have a second child who will likely be impacted by this redistricting because she is more than 5 years younger than her older sibling so won’t get any sibling preference. I am fully in support of this change. Here is why. Unlike many of the parents on the UWS who moved to the city as adults, I grew up in NYC during the bad old days of the 1970s and 1980s. I was a poor kid in a bad neighborhood and I was one of many children who were bused to one of the “nice” schools in better neighborhoods. Parents didn’t want us there. They claimed we would make things worse. My elementary years were glorious and I honestly don’t think any of us kids really knew what the hell was going on. We liked each other. Us bused kids were more likely to get free subsidized lunches and our clothing wasn’t as nice but we all learned.
I have attended a few of the parent meetings and I have to say I’ve been HORRIFIED and mildly (greatly) disgusted by the entitled, limousine liberalism of so many of the sentiments. I’m fortunate that I’m now in a position to live in the district and work in a field where I am very generously compensated. However, my identity will always be linked back to that poor kid who was bused. All the negative commentary is very personal to me.
Diversity is good for us. It’s good for our kids. The subtly (and at times overtly) racist undertones of this entire dialogue is precisely why we need to further diversify the schools in district 3. Congrats to the city and shame to all the parents who are truly behaving in the self-centered and self-interested way that drove the rise of Donald Trump.
Well said UWS PARENT…couldn’t agree with you more…..I am tired of hearing discussions and opinions etc….on the topic of diversity and nothing ever gets done….we have to start somewhere but nobody wants it to be with them but yet people jump on the bandwagon by serving lipservice of diversity!
@452parentforthemove – if diversity is so important to you, why didn’t you send your kid to PS 191, or PS 145, or one of the many other under-enrolled, diverse schools in District 3? Let me guess…you wanted diversity…but not THAT much diversity. Lol.
Well Anon FYI…yes my kid goes to 452, not because of the location, because ANON I don’t live in the zone! I, as an informed parent, applied to many different schools, and I knew of Scott Parker and his reputation as a teacher, that is why I went there…..and frankly ANON my child has gotten a excellent education there, but the downside has been, besides the lack of diversity, how do I say this, the entitlement and snootiness of other parents. It is not such a big deal to me to move because we don’t live in the present zone anyway….and oh yeah I trust the administration and staff of 452.
That was your choice to send your kid to 452 while not living in the zone. Others might have chosen it for quality and proximity to where they live. That is their prerogative.
It is admitted that the children that are moved there will also suffer quality education for the first few years. Can you blame a parent for not wanting to sacrifice their child during those rebuilding years?
“Trust me child, your life might be harmed but those children that follow might be better off.”
We are currently zoned for PS 9 and have a kindergartner there now. But under the new zoning we would be zoned for 166. Admitted not a bad option but at the same time I am not going to send my 3 year old there in 2 years. PS9 is 100 yards from my house 166 at least a 15 minute walk. I feel for these PS 452 parents.
452parentforthemove –
So let me get this straight…you don’t live in the 452 zone, but yet you want to criticize people who chose to live in the zone for fighting to keep the school in the zone. I won’t be rude about it, but I’m not sure how you can’t take that stance. And, I hope you aren’t lecturing people on diversity if your zoned school is a more diverse school than 452.
This is an important post. Thank you for taking the time to share your story.
D3 parent, My feelings about 452 have nothing to do with diversity. The make-up of my child’s current grade is unlikely to change substantially post-move, so even if I was actively seeking more exposure to “diversity” this wouldn’t be the best way to get it.
For me, this comes down to a lack of trust in the 452 administration and disgust over the poor attitude towards the parents who worked hard to build the school. That email yesterday from the principal quoting the Holocaust survivor was just awful.
Too bad they didn’t just tear down Amsterdam Houses, sell the land to developers for a fortune, use the fortune to build more and nicer NYCHA housing elsewhere on less valuable real estate, require the developer to include a school in the new development (and I mean really require it, don’t just pay lip service), and suddenly all of our problems go away – if only Robert Moses had been this forward thinking…
I am not the only one thinking this…
The Bloomberg administration was very much in favor of this strategy. I don’t think that NYCHA residents can be evicted easily, they probably have as good rent protection as RS/RC tenants. Bloomberg strategy (which was opposed widely) was to use vacant land (notice the parking lots & playgrounds on some NYCHA sites) to build mixed-income housing. There is also some evidence that NYCHA is warehousing apartments in desirable areas (Brooklyn, Manhattan) to accommodate possible demolition. NYC leans heavily Democratic, we would have to get a massive sea change in our electeds on all levels to start a wholesale demolition.
ANON, your full of it! As one of the parents who signed it, much more then 34….learn to count,
452parentformove – If you would like me to, I will go down that letter and list everyone’s name and the number of children they will have attending the newly relocated 452. You really want me to do that…..
Maybe we are not talking about the same letter….the one I signed has many more then that…..more then one letter circulated ANON
452parentformove – I’m talking about the letter that was recently circulated after the CEC “plan” was distributed. Go back and take a look at it. While it may have had over 100 signatures, by the time you backed out faculty (which surprisingly less than half signed), UWS community members not affiliated with the school and 452 parents whose children are not impacted (i.e. 5th graders) you are left with around 34 children. Go back and look at the letter and tell me again if you think I am wrong.
So according to you, the 452 parents who say they don’t want to move due to commute should NOT be taken at face value, and they are actually just racists…but the 452 teacher who made that comment SHOULD be taken at face value, and is in no way implying that the families are racist?
How about you stop “reading into” the comments of your fellow parents, and recognize that they just don’t want to commute?
The letter I am looking at was parent signed only, did not have any faculty signatures.
ANON…after the commment you made to me on November 11, “Let me guess…you wanted diversity…but not THAT much diversity. Lol.”…that clearly tells me what your feelings are on the subject.
As far as those living in the zone wanting the school to stay in the zone….I actually had way more compassion for them in the beginning of all this…I get it…way back when zoned for a particular school, not enough seats, took a chance on a new school…now uprooting school….well nothing is guaranteed in life, and in a few years they will be rezoning again…this is not just a diversity issue, it is a space issue, but you know that already ANON…I wish you the best of luck ANON, truly, we will never ever see eye to eye on this, and that’s ok…the bottom line is you will do what you believe is best for your kids and family…good luck with all of it! But in the meantime, have some dignity in your words, when you were at 452 you liked it, now you don’t, okay, I get it…everyone should be more respectful of each others feelings and not read into everything said.
Point in fact, The NY Post Article:
“I’m not sure there would be this much opposition if the new area was more to their liking,” said a teacher at PS 452.
Come on, tell me there is not some truth in this statement, reality is people try at least to move to areas they like, feel comfortable in, some people like areas in Queens over areas in Manhattan, etc…but there is a comfort zone people look for in moving….it doesn’t always have to do with being racist because you don’t like a particular area, people need to sometimes take a statement at face value and stop reading into it.
Good luck ANON!
Please do this, its the only way to shine the light on the hypocrisy!
I have the ideal solution:
Similar to middle school and high school, you put your child’s name in the lottery. You’re stuck with whatever school is picked for you.
But seriously, who elected the CEC members, or are they self appointed? How long are their terms? Can they be impeached?
Middle school & high school entrance is not by lottery. The most desirable schools are screened (I’m not including the SHSAT schools) , which means that the schools look at children’s grades and/or portfolio and/or onsite test and/or interview. The ranking of schools on the child’s application matters and the school has a ranking as well. In some parts of NYC, schools are zoned or have a district preference.
CEC members are elected by various PA/PTA executives from each district school, there are also 2 borough president appointees. I am not sure that there is an “impeachment” process – you would have to refer to the DOE website. If you look at the composition of the CEC, there is an effort to have only one representative from a school. There aren’t enough seats on the CEC to guarantee a seat for every school. I hazard a guess that changes to the DOE regulation require consensus at the city-level.
Dear Westsider,
Do you know if it’s true that families rezoned into a new zone (eg, 9 or 87) won’t even get equal access? Ie, we’ve heard that the DOE will put these families at the back of the line because they were in 452 before, thereby forcing them to go to 452?
ANON1 I hope you see this comment, I wasn’t able to reply for some reason your last comment.
First of all, I know everyone thinks it is a done deal, however, I won’t entirely believe it till November 22nd, when the official vote is taken. If anything we learned from the presidential election is that we cannot take anything as a given.
ANON1 despite all the hurtful words on here and in the courtyard, there is no “fitting back in,” because you will always “be in.” No doubt you are one of those parents that made 452 so great, if you choose to put your kids at 452, you will do what you always do, be a great parent.
Despite others comments on here, our children will not at all lack educationally wise because it will be the same great staff giving the same great curriculum and education.
Though I have voiced my opinion on here, mainly because I have kept quiet throught this process, but the meeting Wednesday night sent me over the edge in a manner of speaking….I do regret if I have offended you or anyone else on here…lesson to be learned, don’t blog when upset! 🙂
I also have not privy to any of the conversations at 452, in the courtyard or anywhere else, maybe I block it out, don’t know.
People say things in the heat of the moment, those who have said hurtful things on both ends of the spectrum, need to take a step back.
ANON1, I feel like I know you in a manner of speaking, I do hope your family comes to the school if this all happens, you would continue to contribute so much….I know it will be a hard communte, for me as well, and it will be an adjustment, but those moving to 452, we can do it together. I believe that. Whatever you decide, all the best 🙂
452parentformove, I don’t know if ANON1 will see your post, but I have heard you loud and clear. You and your posts are what make me, as a parent, terrified of sending my child to the new 452…I know, you don’t want my child there. The DOE has also recently made it clear that they couldn’t care less about the families who are forced to commute because they have no viable alternative, stating that the success of the new school does not depend on the existing families. How disheartening is this to hear? Who would volunteer to send their child to a school where dissention is shouted down, where decisions are made in secret and where you are valued as a member if you agree with the administration? Some parents will go there because DOE gave them no choice, not because they want to.
Broadway…not sure where you got I don’t want your child at 452 but clearly I would never change your mind… all the best wherever yiu land.
After all the whining about overcrowding 199 now sits quietly while everyone else scrambles..reclaim art, music and science rooms?? When did they lose them?? Two art, one music, one science and an extra classroom for ??? And next year only 5 K classes and a much smaller zone.
It’s become quite clear that Anderson isn’t moving, but have we ever been told why? The proposed PS87 zone clearly needs the space, that’s why PS452 was created in the first place. I am a big supporter of integration, but I do feel like PS87, which gets none of the benefits of integration through this new plan, is just going to be stuffed to capacity to make the new integrated schools more appealing and successful. Our zone is not shrinking. What do we get out of this new plan?
I know that there is no plan to move Anderson, but has anyone ever explained why? I am a big fan of integration, but PS87 isn’t getting any of the benefits of that, and is merely being asked to reabsorb a whole territory that made the school over-crowded in recent history. Why does PS87 have to suffer just to make the new schools desirable and successful? If we don’t think of a sustainable solution for all schools, we will be back to the drawing board in 5 more years, once again dealing with the complicated issues of siblings, etc.